Recently I've had a bit of trouble. Most people know that I've been having a massive problem with juniors taking photos from my website for their facebook pages. I asked one of them to remove the images and then got accused of all sorts of things. That's not what this blog post is about, but it is part of the background.
While the experience was terrible, it did make me want to find out more about copyright, taking photos and putting them up on the web. So what did I find out?
Interesting that here in Australia, we have no right to privacy when you are in a public place. So if you are in a race on a public road then I can photograph you without permission. The law does not differentiate between children and adults.
When the sport takes place in a stadium, or somewhere indoors, once I have permission to take photos from the owners, or the people who are responsible for the building, so at DISC that would be CSV, then I can take photos of whoever I like there.
Where it starts getting tricky is what I can do with the photos. Apparently I have to be very careful about how I display the photos on the web. No names, no addresses or phone numbers. As long as the photos are not crude or distasteful and I don't give any identifying details, then I can display them on my website. Though, if I was asked not to put photos up because of other issues, eg custody problems, witness protection. I'm not going to be difficult.
So what does all this mean, basically I can take photos of anyone I like when I am in a public place or have permission to take photos, and I can put them up on my website, and you can make sure I don't do anything bad with them.
Another problem seems to be with the whole copyright thing. Who owns it?
I own all the copyright of the images that are on my website. Just because you may be in them, does not mean you have a right to use them or copy them. It really is that simple. Copying images to facebook because you like them and then thanking me for the photos is still stealing. It doesn't matter what you do with the photos, if you make a copy of the image onto your computer it is breaching copyright and you can get into a lot of trouble for it.
Also, when you copy the images to facebook you are breaching their terms of use conditions and they can take action against you.
I've tried to explain it simply. If you look you can find a whole lot of information on the internet about copyright. You really need to be careful, not just with my stuff, but when you try to copy any image from the internet. You should make sure you are allowed to do it first. Look for images that are available on public domain, or put the word free into your search engine. From what I can work out it is ok to use stuff if for education reasons, and facebook isn't educational, so be careful.
The last thing you want is to be sued for a massive amount of money because you did breach someone's copyright. The defence, I didn't know, doesn't really work in the legal system. Parents should know what their children are doing.
Consider that my website is a shop, you can browse, but you can't take anything from that shop without buying it first. If you do, it is the same as shoplifting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_copyright_law
ReplyDeleteI suggest that the chances of any action being successful against a kid who's copied a picture you've published online onto facebook is next to zero and very expensive and time consuming for you to pursue. If someone's taking your content and selling it or using it commercially, that's a different story, but kids copying and slapping up on facebook .. It's just not going to happen. Also, you are turning potential customers into non-customers by threatening to do it. Consider the stuff you put on your website as a teaser or a free sample, because that's what it is once you put it online, it's free, whether you (or I!) like it or not.
You're not going to sue some kid for the $5 or whatever is is that the photo would cost for them to buy from you. You have to adapt to the way the world is. You keep ranting about this, but the fact is that the world has changed and you have to find other ways to make a buck as a photographer. Like it or not, "legal" or not, your photos will get copied from your website and there's nothing you can do to prevent it. No javascript to block right clicks will help, if you put it up, it will get copied.
Remember, a professional photographer isn't someone who can take a good photo (that's the easy part!) it's someone who can sell their service.
I wish it wasn't this way, but it is, and we (I've played at being a photographer too ... even had contracts to produce photos!) have to find different ways to engage clients and provide a service that can be charged for.
the point being that it is BREAKING THE LAW I can't believe that people think it is OK. So what we should just let them do it, so we teach kids that is it OK to break some laws, let them decide. Are there things we can yeah, educate them that it isn't alright. I'm sick to death of being told that I have to live with it. should kids be allowed to go into shops and steal, what does it matter if it is something worth $2
ReplyDeleteBleve has a point, but I think he is missing the point. People growing up in an online world need to learn how to manage themselves in that environment, in ethical ways. Copyright is one of those issues that needs to be understood and learnt young, as the technology will continue to morph, facilitating bowerbirding and magpie-ing in easier and easier ways.
ReplyDeleteIt's something that we try to teach here at work (uni) to our predominantly international students. Some get it, most don't. It's complex, but they get a big fat FAIL if they are caught cheating and plagiarising. It's the same thing as Leanne is discussing here.
As you say Bleve, it's the way the world is now, which means people have to learn new sets of rules and behaviours in that dynamic environment. Fobbing it off as "that's the way it is" is ignorant and simply putting one's head in the sand.
I think this is a really big issue, not just for Leanne but for all of us who've benefited from having her take photo's at events. Leanne not only takes a fine photo but takes LOTS of them and then takes the time to put them up on her site. Most of the other photographers about town put up a handful and if you were lucky enough to win A grade you just might find a pic of yourself on their site.
ReplyDeleteLeanne also makes her full resolution pictures available for a very reasonable cost. All of this makes Leanne a really important contributor to the life of cycling in Victoria and to allowing us cyclists to have a record of our participation in it.
Leanne has a few ways of tightening things down, none of which will benefit us as cyclists and customers at all. She can make her website more resistant to copying which will cost a bomb and eventually have to be passed on to us in price increases. She can make the thumbnails tiny and of lower quality, making it almost impossible to tell if the picture is even of me, let alone if it's any good. Or, she can sue someone's arse off. This last one is probably the only viable option if people don't stop stealing her work (and yes, stealing is exactly the right word for it).
This is a matter of ethics, of young people learning to behave properly in a changing world. Stealing isn't made right by the fact that it is hard to stop.
The fact that someone of Bleve's standing in the sport is condoning this theft and making excuses for these people with no sense of ethical behaviour is a bad look for the whole sport.
I'm not condoning copyright violations and the suggestion that I'm condoning theft is offensive to me. Theft is not copyright violation anyway, but that notwithstanding, I am not in favour of people copying Leanne's work without permission or payment.
ReplyDeleteI'm saying that this is how it is and that the game has changed, which it has. I used to try and sell photos too, a lot got copied, I sold very few. I was out at Baw Baw getting frozen at Winch corner for years, taking photos of every competitor. I did the same for the De Bortoli tour, loads of track races etc, I earned my stripes. So, Nancyboy, whoever you are, I know what I'm talking about and I have credibility and experience. I also worked (and still do as my main day job) for many years for online content providers and we tried every trick in the book to stop content from getting copied. Guess what ... it DOESN'T WORK. Even slicing photos up into chunks doesn't work. The kids are miles ahead of anything anyone can come up with.
And no-one is going to sue a 14 y/o kid for putting a photo up on facebook.
No amount of ranting is going to change the way the world is now. Digital stuff is going to get copied no matter what you do. If it's online, it's published and it will get copied, Like it or not. The only way to stop it, is not to publish online.
Lawrence, I'm not 'putting my head in the sand', the way it is is something that any digital content provider has to come to terms with, which is kinda the opposite of putting your head in the sand, it's looking out and seeing what's really happening.
Leanne, if you want to make a buck doing this, you have to find a way to sell your service. We discussed this a few times in person, you're flogging a dead horse by getting upset about this, you can't do anything about it, you have to adapt to the way it is and find some other way to make a dollar from it. Start thinking laterally. Stamping your feet and jumping up and down won't do anything except bruise your heels. I did what you're trying to do, I know what you're up against. Find another way.
I hope you work something out, you've got a good eye and you're dedicated.
Carl
Carl,
ReplyDeleteYou are completely ignorant! Of course there is a way to deal with these issues. It's to encourage a society which deals with each other on the basis of respect, community, fairness and ethics. This situation is actually a pretty simple one because ALL of the people involved are members of the same local cycling community. They know each other in real life as well as on the interweb.
Theft is "the dishonest taking of property belonging to another person" and infringing copyright or intellectual property rights fits this definition just as well as stealing physical property does.
The bottom line here is that if this kind of behaviour continues, people like Leanne will expend their energy elsewhere, just as you have. What I was trying to say to you is that someone like you, who carries weight with these young people, should be busy encouraging them to grow a brain and learn how to behave as adults. Instead you are berating Leanne about the fact that there's nothing she can do about it which, whether you can admit it or not is tacit approval. It's analogous to the "she got what she deserved, wearing that dress" argument.
By the way, my name is peter annear and I am a mere cyclist who's benefited from Leanne's good work.